May 5, 2013
Rethinking Civilization– Plunging Earth Into Sixth Extinction; Daniel Quinn Interview Transcript Part 2
By Rob Kall
Daniel Quinn’s book, Ishmael, about a telepathic gorilla, won a Ted Turner award for book with a hopeful vision of the future. It’s become a bestseller translated into many languages and I recommend it as must reading if you’ve never read it. This portion of the interview discusses the book AND his thoughts on civilization, beyond civilization, the Sixth Extinction and the disaster that hierarchy is…
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I interviewed Daniel Quinn on April 5th, 2013. This is part two of a two part interview. Here is a link to the audio podcast. This is part 2 of the interview transcript. Part one is here.
Thanks to Don Caldarazzo for doing the transcript.
Daniel Quinn’s book, Ishmael, about a telepathic gorilla, won a Ted Turner award for book with a hopeful vision of the future. It’s become a bestseller translated into many languages and I recommend it as must reading if you’ve never read it. This portion of the interview discusses the book AND his thoughts on civilization, beyond civilization, the Sixth Extinction and the disaster that hierarchy is…
Rob Kall: This success doesn’t seem like such a good thing /
Daniel Quinn: (laughs)
Rob Kall: – to most of the people.
by Yinghai
Daniel Quinn: Yeah, that’s probably true, but what I’m trying to direct them to is: to look at the foundations instead of picking at individual things. Saying, “We’ve got to stop being dependent on petroleum. We’ve got to develop alternative renewable resources for power. We’ve got to get rid of gasoline powered automobiles. We’ve got to stop polluting the air, the greenhouse gases. We’ve got to stop doing the things that are causing climate change.” These things, these particulars – rather than to look at the underlying organization – that says, “This is the way. It may be terrible, but this is the way people were meant to live. There is no other way. There is nothing beyond civilization.”
Rob Kall: Can I read the final two paragraphs that you sent me on this?
Daniel Quinn: Yeah.
Rob Kall: You wrote: “The success of our civilization is prodigious, and it’s success has never been more spectacular than it is right now. It has plunged us into a sixth extinction that, unless checked, will bring an end to humanity as surely as the fifth extinction brought an end to the great dinosaurs. But it must continue at any cost and never be abandoned under any circumstance, even if it kills us.
Our civilization is a cloud that darkens the entire living community of out planet; but by God it stays up in the sky, and it doesn’t fall to earth. This is it’s success, and we know in our bones that it must continues at any cost and never be abandoned under any circumstance, even if it kills us and all life on this planet.” Whew!
Daniel Quinn: (laughs) Something to think about.
Rob Kall: Well you know, I call my show the Bottom Up Radio Show. I believe we’re transitioning from a top down world to a more bottom up world. The top down world was catalyzed by agriculture, and the creation of cities and civilization, and slavery and domination, and hierarchy and centralization – and that it’s the internet, this huge new communication method that is changing the way our brains work, particularly among the young, that’s shifting us a to a bottom up mode. And it’s really got me thinking about civilization, and if it has been a mistake: a detour on the human path on the biological path of Gaia, the Earth.
Daniel Quinn: Yes. Well, all of them began as experiments; and people, humans are prone to experiments, so the tendency is admirable — sure, try something out! But then our civilization became obsessed with the idea that there was no other was to live, and everybody had to live this way. The other civilizations that I’ve talked about, they didn’t have that idea. They didn’t conquer the people around them and make them live the way they lived. They didn’t spread out all over North America and South America. We are unique in that, and that uniqueness is terrible! And it’s something that we have to think about. I think everybody should be aware of it.
Rob Kall: What about religion? It seems to me that one of the factors that moves civilization to evangelize and convert is religion.
Daniel Quinn: Yes. Well, I have this theory that there have been hundreds of more religions than the ones we know about, and the ones that survived are the ones that fit in with our cultural mythology: that fit in with the vision of humanity as the most important thing in the universe, that endorses the idea that humans are here to rule the rest of the living community. The ones that didn’t, for example, Animism, which was the practically the universal religion of Leaver Peoples, and still is, wherever they are still found, does not support it [our cultural mythology], and so it is not one of our religions. It’s hardly known, but it doesn’t say anything about that. Animism is a religious world view rather than a religion, a world view that sees the world as a sacred place, and humans as belonging in a sacred place. This is not an idea that fits with our civilization’s, our culture’s vision of the world and humanity, and so it doesn’t appear as a religion to us.
Rob Kall: So, we’ve got this idea, “The Invisibility of Success,” and it’s really describing a problem. It’s describing the inability, because of the meme about the inevitability, of people to say, “No. This is not working.”
Daniel Quinn: Yes. I think the only way to get people to start saying “No” is to show them how they are saying “Yes,” see what they are saying “Yes” to. It’s only then they can say “No.” It’s like the recent general realization that there is really something fundamentally wrong with our economic system, and something that needs to be said “No” to. But before that, it was always “Yes! What’s wrong? Everything’s cool.” But now, in recent decades, people have begun to say “What, no. Maybe not. Maybe this is really corrupt. Maybe it’s working for that one percent [1%], but what about the rest of us?” People are now ready to say “No” to that, because they’ve been made aware of what they’ve been saying “Yes” to for so long. I’ve added a paragraph to this essay. (laughs)
Rob Kall: Go ahead. Read it.
Daniel Quinn: No, I mean I just said it.
Rob Kall: Oh. OK, OK. Yes, well, this essay – who knows, maybe it’ll turn into your next book. What are you going to do with it?
Daniel Quinn: I am thinking of collecting all of my essays and making this the title essay, making this the title of the book. I’m going to propose it to my agent and see what she thinks, and if she doesn’t think it will fly, I’ll publish it myself.
Rob Kall: OK. Do you think there’s a future for humanity beyond civilization?
Daniel Quinn: I think there is, yes – if we can get beyond civilization. Of course, I wrote a whole book called Beyond Civilization trying to point with a wavering hand toward the possibility of there being something beyond civilization. The people of the Middle Ages couldn’t imagine anything beyond what they had. It was the final state of humanity. And then came the Renaissance. They couldn’t have predicted the Renaissance, and we can’t predict anything beyond us; but there better be something beyond us, or we’re finished on this planet.
Rob Kall: Do you think there’s a possibility that the next stage beyond civilization could be a spiraling evolution up towards another bottom up way of being?
Daniel Quinn: It has to be. Hierarchy is the disaster. So i”m pointing to the — oh, what is it called, the Marcora law in Italy – which makes it possible for a group of ten people who want to get together to work – basically as a tribe, work cooperatively – unemployed people, who will be given three years worth of dole payments as capital to start a new venture. It’s an amazing idea, very much a bottom up idea. It’s been a tremendous success in Italy, and I hope it will get more attention in the United States.
Rob Kall: What’s it called?
Daniel Quinn: I think it’s Marcora Law
. I’ve got it written down.
Rob Kall: I’ll get the spelling from you after we’re done the interview. So. going back. You’ve described how early on you’d spent an awful lot of time looking at anthropology, and archeology, and aboriginal cultures; we still have aboriginal cultures on this planet now. I personally believe that they should be protected to the point where anybody attempting to reach them is shot.
Daniel Quinn: (laughs)
Rob Kall: I really believe that. I believe that we need them desperately because they provide a connection to our past that is totally unavailable once a tribe becomes civilized or gets touched by culture. But I wonder from you, what have you learned looking at aboriginal culture? There’s a new book out now by Jared Diamond called The World Until Yesterday, where he discusses some of the ideas about aboriginal culture and what we can learn from them. What are some of the things you learned from aboriginal culture?
Daniel Quinn: Basically that each tribe had it’s own identity, had it’s own laws, which were very bottom up. They were not laws that punished people, they were laws that helped to make things right, rather than punishing what was wrong. They were not the same from tribe to tribe: the Sioux didn’t think that everybody should have their laws, or should live the way the Sioux lived, and the Pueblos didn’t think that everybody should live the way they lived. And the fact that, in a tribe, you’re never sick all by yourself; you’re never dying all by yourself, you’re never poor all by yourself. The bringing up of children is not all your problem, it’s the problem if the whole tribe. All of these things, the function of the tribe, is to make life work for everyone. If food is scarce, everyone is hungry. There aren’t a few at the top who get to keep on eating. And if there’s a lot of food, everybody gets more food.
So it’s a much friendlier, (laughs) God knows, way of life than our,s where each of us is isolated, each of us, everyone for himself. That just doesn’t work as a principle for people. It’s very hard on people. And people think we’re rich, but what I saw in studies of aboriginal peoples was how rich they were; not in toys, but in their lives, in the security they had. They had no jobs to lose, they couldn’t become poorer unless they were all poorer.
Rob Kall: I know that, in the 1800s, the theory about early humans was that they were brutal people who suffered and struggled; and what we now know from studying the Bushmen, the San people of the Kalahari, is that their average workday is two or three hours, and they’ve got a great life, and it’s not hard at all, and we work profoundly harder than them.
Daniel Quinn: Oh yeah. It’s incredible. If you pick up a can of peas, and you think of the incredible amount of work that went into putting that can of peas on your shelf – it took thousands of people to do that! (laughs) It’s just amazing; everything we have represents that kind of output of energy and calories, and then everybody thinks they had a hard life, primitive people have a hard life. We’re the ones who have a hard life.
Rob Kall: So this is the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show, WNJC 1360 AM, reaching metro Philly and South Jersey, sponsored by Opednews.com . You don’t even need to remember Opednews.com . Just do a Google search for “Progressive Opinion” or “Liberal News,” and we’ll come up at the very top of the search, although we’re really kind of Left of Liberal. I’ve been speaking with Daniel Quinn. He’s an author, a person who is a cultural critic who has explored the bigger picture of the relationship of man with the planet. And Daniel, I have a question for you that I think you’ll be able to answer. While we were talking before I started recording the conversation, you mentioned to me that Oprah asked you a question that you weren’t ready to answer at the time.
Daniel Quinn: Yes.
Rob Kall: What was the question and what’s the= answer?
Daniel Quinn: The question was: “Your book is all about “Leavers” and “Takers.” What are Leavers and Takers?” (laughs) I was thinking, oh my God, how in the world can I answer that? And years later I would have been able to say, I define them this way: Leavers are people who leave the rule of the world in the hands of the Gods, and takers who’ve taken the rule of the world into their own hands. Da dah! Finished.
Rob Kall: All right.
Daniel Quinn: (laughs)
Rob Kall: And this is a big part of Ishmael, and I have to say again as we wrap up this conversation: Ishmael is an amazing book that will make you think of the world in a very different way, and make you think of yourself and civilization as well. Daniel, I wonder — it has to be that there are people who have attacked Ishmael and the ideas in it. Who have been your attackers?
Daniel Quinn: They haven’t really brought themselves to my attention.
Rob Kall: Really!
Daniel Quinn: Really, yeah. (laughs) Some people sort of tentatively said, “Oh, you’re idealizing aboriginal peoples,” which is nonsense. I make a point of saying that they’re absolutely no different from us, they’re no more noble, or anything like that. They’re just exactly like us, they just happen to have a way of life that works for them. That’s about as far as anyone has gone. The book is used in hundreds of classrooms in all sorts of subjects: archaeology, anthropology, history, religion, psychology – on, and on, and on. Teachers really love the book, but scholars have not accepted it into their library yet. I’m not a scientist, I’m not a scholar, and so I don’t come wearing the right clothes to visit their library.
Rob Kall: You’ve certainly brought a light into this world that has made a difference that I think will continue to make a difference. I believe Ishmael was one of the most important books of the last century. In wrapping up, I just want to thank you. You’ve done something really important, and given us all a gift of a way to think; and now this new idea, The Invisibility of Success, it’s a powerful concept. Basically what you’re saying is, you have to see how something is successful in order to deal with it, I think.
Daniel Quinn: Yes. I want to say that my conversation with you has been great, and as I told you, I was a little nervous in the beginning, since I’d never talked about this before; but I managed to plow right ahead, and I’m very pleased by the outcome.
Rob Kall: All right.
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Rob Kall is executive editor, publisher and website architect of OpEdNews.com, Host of the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show (WNJC 1360 AM), and publisher of Storycon.org, President of Futurehealth, Inc, and an inventor . He is also published regularly on the Huffingtonpost.com
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Okay, now we are going to cry. Or at least sit around for the rest of the day and contemplate the meaninglessness of existence.










